Carrie Ann: Let’s talk about relationships. In my past I have been in some very unhealthy relationships and attracted narcissists. It’s also brought out my own narcissistic tendencies. But, I think I relate more with being a codependent empath and having an anxious attachment style. Why does this happen? How does this narcissist codependent attraction happen? Why is it so prevalent in our society? Lisa A. Romano: Empaths and codependents are different. An empath is like a sponge. An empath will pick up on the wounds of a narcissist, and immediately want to fix and heal them. Empaths are highly forgiving – they know that people are flawed – so they give people a pass. A narcissist says “Carrie Ann, I heard you. I’m so sorry. I’m going to work on that”. That fills you with joy. It makes the empath in you feel like a true healer, like you really can help this person. An empath can understand and even empathize with why the narcissist is abusive. Such as, “well, he abuses me because his father was an alcoholic”. They have this level of empathy for someone who’s narcissistic, and that’s exactly what a narcissist needs. A narcissist needs someone with high compassion. A narcissist requires it. A narcissist needs someone who says “that’s okay babe, I understand you made some mistake. As long as you’re working on yourself, that’s great, we can move towards this”. A codependent is someone who needs to be needed. They are someone who does not have a sense of self, so they get one by catering to someone who is self-focused. A narcissist does not know how to navigate the world without direction. A narcissist oftentimes appears to be someone who has a lot of a lot of wounds and a codependent says, “I can fix that”. And they get a sense of self from fixing the narcissist. So, they’re not the same thing. However, an empath can have codependent traits and a codependent can be highly empathic. Carrie Ann: That’s the part that trips everybody up, I think. That nothing’s quite black and white, right? Lisa A. Romano: No. Carrie Ann: You mentioned that empaths can sense the trauma in a narcissist. My theory is that empaths and narcissists come from the same sort of trauma, a trauma so immense that they just couldn’t deal with it and stay balanced. For me as the empath, I became hyper sensitive and developed my “spidey” skills. I sort of went outward in order to survive. And in my experience, the narcissist has the same kind of trauma. Maybe they’re scared as a child, so they go inward for survival. They only think about the self. There is nobody that exists that is as important as the self, because it’s their survival mode. Am I way off on this or is there some truth here? Lisa A. Romano: There’s new research suggesting that narcissism is on the rise, and the researchers have an inkling that social media has something to do with that. This idea that this generation has a platform to celebrate themselves and to gain a source of narcissistic supply, right? That’s one theory. But it is more commonly known that narcissists do suffer from terrible trauma. They go so far inside themselves that they develop a false narrative, and a false self. So they really do think that they’re better than you. They really do believe that. What they need you to do, if you’re going to be in a relationship with them, is to reflect that back. “Oh, babe you’re awesome. Oh, you’re amazing. Oh, no one’s as smart as you. It’s okay, you didn’t mean to go out drinking and crash the car and get three DUIs. It’s not your fault”. They need that. They need someone to mirror that back. That prevents them from feeling vulnerable. They see vulnerability in someone else as a weakness, and they feel entitled to exploit someone who has vulnerability. Carrie Ann: Oh, I see. So that’s perfect as an empath. What people maybe don’t recognize is as empaths we’re not only vulnerable, we’re also highly intuitive. I think what I’ve learned from listening to you is that it’s really important to listen to the deeper self that actually does know how to take care of you. What is good advice for an empath so that they don’t choose another narcissist? How can they create a boundary? Lisa A. Romano: This is why I talk so much about what codependency symptoms feel and look like, because I didn’t know that I was a codependent, yet I was. When I started to research, I realized that I knew what it felt like. Then I saw codependency in almost everyone. People need to know that sometimes trying to control a person is codependent. Maybe you just bought a person a beautiful bridal shower gift and you’re pissed off because it’s not all over Instagram – that’s codependency. You’re looking for a sense of self in this person celebrating you. You want to be recognized, noticed. You’re doing things because you need to feel like you’re seen by others. That’s not good, right? What we have to do first is recognize who we are. How do we show up in relationships? Am I attracting narcissists? Well, I’m the common denominator. None of these men know each other. Carrie Ann: Right? I was like, oh, it’s me. Lisa A. Romano: Right? None of these people knew each other! They lived in different zip codes. So I had to get real with myself and say, “oh my God, this is me”. You have to identify. You have to take stock of that. And then you have to recognize why you’re doing it, because it’s not your fault. If you’re an empath, you can be one with no codependent tendencies and still absorb the energies of other people, because it’s natural for you. You process the world through the emotional body. It’s just the way you were born. Some people believe that empaths are created because of the trauma, and I believe there’s truth in that. I think the one of the reasons I have so much empathy is because I experienced such little empathy in my life. I couldn’t imagine bullying someone because I was bullied. I couldn’t imagine hurting someone and inflicting on them what I experienced. As a codependent and as an empath, you have to recognize who you are, and pay attention to yourself and how you show up. Then you have to develop grounding techniques, and understand what a codependent thought is and what it’s not. You have to know what your intentions are. You have to self-love, and you need boundaries. Carrie Ann: There’s so much incredible information here, but one of the things that stands out to me is if you notice yourself looking for your value from others, that’s where you have to be careful.
We hope that through this conversation we have demystified and clarified a few of the buzzwords that you’ve seen in the self-help world. Lisa has such a depth of knowledge in this area, and many resources to check out if you’re interested in hearing more! She has meditations on Insight Timer, as well as several books. Links to more information on Lisa are below! For more information and resources on Lisa A. Romano, view the links below: Her website Her 12 week course Her books – “I suggest you read my books in the following order,: The Road Back To Me, My Road Beyond the Codependent Divorce, Codependent Now What? It’s Not You-It’s Your Programming, Quantum Tools To Help You Heal Your Life Now, and Loving The Self Affirmations 1 & 2.” – Lisa A. Romano
